Curse

iridescentfyre · Nov 25, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

Your offhand attack stsyem seems a bit complicated. I dont think the average GW player would be able to understand how to make an effective sin or even to defend against one.

True, perhaps. But in my opinion, the "average GW player" could benefit from a good word problem now and then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

no, i disagree, that would screw up a lot of builds. besides, if that happened too many problems come with it

In case you didn't notice, there's several extremely popular assassin builds in need of being screwed up at the moment.

ensoriki · Nov 25, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Things being screwed up doesn't matter if NEW things come out of it.
I believe the goal is to take away instagib, but still make them viable through short recharges etc.

moriz · Nov 25, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

incorrect. the goal is to take away instagib and make them viable by giving them other abilities other than pure damage and a teleport.

the reason being that assassins in their current form can really exist in two forms: too much damage and overpowered, or not enough damage and completely useless. that "middleground" in terms of damage is a myth. it does not exist.

we can increase damage, reduce recharge, decrease damage, decrease cost, or in whatever combination. but without solving the fundamental problems with the assassin by giving them additional utility without sacrificing skill slots, all we'll be changing is the combos of the overpowered skill masher, and nothing else.

LightningHell · Nov 25, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the reason being that assassins in their current form can really exist in two forms: too much damage and overpowered, or not enough damage and completely useless. that "middleground" in terms of damage is a myth. it does not exist.

To expand, I'll quote part of a post I posted in the other thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Point is, an instagib function is either unusable - i.e. the instagib function is too unreliable - or overpowered - it's reliable enough, hence people take it to instagib. There is pretty much no in-between. Hence the two threads that advocate changing the model of the 'sin entirely.

In essence, as the Assassin is presently built for instagib:

1) You have enough damage to instagib. This makes the class, which already requires an absolute minimum amount of skill to play, a very valid and very dangerous threat, as you pretty much have an imba spike that ensues the death of one person on the opposing team every 20 seconds or so, unless they play perfectly.

2) You don't have enough damage to instagib. As this is the whole point of the class, if you can't instagib, nobody'd take the 'sin.

Hence, no middle ground.

Bowstring Badass · Nov 25, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Lightning does make a point in his post. But it does take some skill to play it effectively not kill for kill.

ensoriki · Nov 25, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

it would take some skill without shadow steps, but with it the assassin's range is truly that of the aggro circle. However nobody likes being dropped in 3 seconds >.>

tiny suggestions.
Make all lead attacks 1/4 casting time.
Make all lead attacks have the clause.
This skill has +33%/25% armor penetration if it follows a dual attack.
and all off-hands +25%/33% armor penetration if it follows lead attack.
Keep duals the same though.

This makes L-O-D far more usable as going through your chain once you get the +25/33% armor penetration from your off-hand but you go through it a second time, and now your lead also has that benefit.

So that way an assassin can compress his main attack to 3 skills, while not at the strength of todays insta-gib, it becomes potent enough, because with 3 skills he then has 5 for utility...well actually 4. The other slots a rez =P

Let all off-hand attacks able to be usable without a lead.
But make them all have a 50% chance to miss if they don't follow a lead.
Making it something of a gamble (the critical strikes attribute itself and Double Strikes is a gamble anyways)

Bobby2 · Nov 25, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

if you can't instagib, nobody'd take the 'sin.

I disagree with this statement... Moebius pressure builds perfectly viable as well.

moriz · Nov 25, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

a warrior can pressure much more effectively than the assassin, which means nobody will use a mobius sin. especially with that paper armor.

either way, the point is that the current implementation of the assassin can only do two things: teleport, and damage. unlike the warrior, a sin cannot contribute much else other than frontloaded damage spikes. therefore, the sin can only exist in two forms (wow i'm getting tired of repeating this, so please learn it this time): not high enough damage, in which case nobody will use them. or, very high damage, in which case they are broken. we can fiddle around the numbers all we want, but all we'll accomplish is changing the skills on the assassin's skill bar. at the end of the day, sins will still be 123456 button mashers, just with different skills.

my ideas will take the assassin in a different direction, directly rewarding player skill as well as opening new avenues of utility. then like other balanced professions, we can then start talking about adjusting the numbers. until then, our efforts are futile.

ensoriki · Nov 25, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Your idea makes them More skillful than quite a few other classes, for less rewards >.>
With your implementation the only thing of ease for an assassin would be shadow steps >.>

Anyways I'll just repeat this >.> Lead attacks should be 1/4 cast time >.> cus Disrupting Stab is slow T_T

Mark Nevermiss · Nov 25, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I suppose this discussion is revolving around PVP but in a PVE section.
I dont think sin spamming 1-2-3 is any less complicated than an ele spamming [skill]Blinding Surge[/skill] over and over and over

runeseeker1 · Nov 25, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

I suppose this discussion is revolving around PVP but in a PVE section.
I dont think sin spamming 1-2-3 is any less complicated than an ele spamming [skill]Blinding Surge[/skill] over and over and over

Yes, but spamming [skill]Blinding Surge[/skill] over and over does not kill anyone, only disrupts melee with a skill that can be easily diverted or shutdown. you can also remove the blind, etc.

A sin spamming 1-2-3 (at the current way it is now) can kill anyone who is not a monk or can blind.

zling · Nov 25, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

the way to fix the Assassins is to improve utility as many of you said before.
buff those underused elites like Wastel's Collapse, Hidden Caltrops, Shadow Shroud, Shroud of Silence, Shadow Meld, etc
and buff the utility skills in both Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts(not those gay spiking skills)
the main advantage this sort of sin will have over other utility classes will be the shadowstepping aspect and the ability to still deal good damage, L-O-D.
so you got 3 attack skills, with or without an elite, 1(or maybe 2) shadowstepping skill(s), 1 res which leaves us with 2-3 utility skills, with or without an elite.
remind you of anything? yes, the standard Warrior bar!
so you might ask why do I make sins into warriors?
I say, I'm not, I'm just making them similar in terms of builds, not functions...

Bobby2 · Nov 25, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

(1) a warrior can pressure much more effectively than the assassin, which means (2) nobody will use a mobius sin. especially with that paper armor.

1. True that Wars are better at 'training'
2. YAN! Where eez yoo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

either way, the point is that the current implementation of the assassin can only do two things: teleport, and damage

I've been doing good at disruption as well.

Moriz, I largely support your suggestions, but IMO you're not giving the class enough credit (only one way to play them, nuh-uh).

Turtle222 · Nov 25, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

You mean those 123456 builds?

yes, what did you expect the assassin build to be? 161324335?

yum · Nov 25, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

yes, what did you expect the assassin build to be? 161324335?

If assasins are meant to be that way, just remove them from PvP (in pve, who cares )

LightningHell · Nov 26, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

I suppose this discussion is revolving around PVP but in a PVE section.
I dont think sin spamming 1-2-3 is any less complicated than an ele spamming [skill]Blinding Surge[/skill] over and over and over

A Blinding Surge ele has a lot more to do that spamming BSurge on a single melee. There are multiple melee, and there are also other roles it performs.

Quote:

I've been doing good at disruption as well.

Moriz, I largely support your suggestions, but IMO you're not giving the class enough credit (only one way to play them, nuh-uh).

Disruption? You can't really do disruption with a typical 'sin bar.

There are many other ways to play it, but why play the other ones when you can instagib?

lacasner · Nov 26, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I largely support moriz's suggestion, because the whole concept of chain combos just promotes gimmicks and stupid play anyway.

/Signed times 10000

X Cytherea X · Nov 26, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

your intent is admirable, moriz
added utility is all well and good
so are shorter, fast-recharging, moderate damage combos that arent quite instagib
id actually play this version of the sin, as long as it can kill a target with 2-3 cycles of l-o-d, in addition to screwing it over with conds/hexes

well, until anet implements this or something similar... i'll stick to the current builds

DDL · Nov 26, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Wouldn't a more simple idea simply be to prevent going straight into an offhand?

That's the real problem, right? The fact that you CAN go straight to O in an O-D-O-D chain.

If that was restricted to elites, perhaps (hello palm strike)?

An idea I was toying with was to have all the "straight into offhand" attacks disable their conditional requirements after use (so Golden Phoenix needs an enchant to hit, but you lose one enchant after use..Black Spider Strike removes a hex from the foe after use, and so on)...but I couldn't work out how on earth that would work with knockdowns (yeah: you leap on them and then kindly stand them up straight after!)...but hey, it was just an idea.

I'd find it fairly annoying in PvE, admittedly (I loves me my GPS, I does: it frees up a spot for blinding powder), but meh..nobody seems to consider PvE anyway. *runs*

moriz · Nov 26, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

that won't fix anything. think of it in this way:

lead>offhand>dual will never get you a kill. it's impossible to get an instagib chain through this method. since sins currently do not contribute anything other than damage, forcing this system will result in nobody running sins at all. then, anet in their infinite wisdom, will see that nobody running sins, and promptly boost sin damage through the stratosphere. everyone will be running sins again, but with the same problems we have now. then anet (after months of delay) will nerf damage back down and we start over from the beginning.

unless anet redesign the sin from scratch, sins should just be banned from pvp. in its current form, it can only cause problems.